Now and then: Pride in the workplace

As Pride Month draws to a close, Paul Abrey and Mark Capanda from BNP Paribas Real Estate share their experiences of coming out in the workplace and reveal first-hand how attitudes towards the LGBTQ+ community have changed over the years, and the progress that still needs to come.

Paul Abrey

• Head of professional services and board member
• Chairman of BNPPRE’s DE&I board
• First role in real estate: 1981

When I think back to my first year in real estate, inclusivity wasn’t really a concept. The sector was defined by traditional stereotypes. Blokes were surveyors and women were secretaries – you never came across a gay surveyor.

I have had a great career in real estate and there is little I would change in terms of the professional side of my work. I have benefited from working with some very senior and influential mentors from whom I soaked up knowledge that I still apply every day in my career today.

However, it’s not been without its challenges. Coming out at work was openly hostile and made worse as I was not clear on my sexuality until relatively late in my life. It certainly held me back in my career and there are some who called me names and bullied me. I won’t mention names, but they know who they are. In my darkest moments, I nearly gave up – something I don’t do lightly. I am glad I did not.

I first started to see real progress coming through in the early 2000s, far too late in my opinion. Our industry has been very slow in all aspects of diversity and still has so far to go. How do we keep progress coming? I think of this in two ways, personally, and then the bigger picture.

I try to be a visible role model. I am not a great one for influence groups – it’s just not me – but I am a very visible gay man in a senior property role. I know surveyors who are still not out at work and I feel for them and support where I can. I speak out and I have zero tolerance for poor conduct.

On the bigger picture front, the sector needs to stop inclusivity washing and start holding itself to account by using proper data. I really believe that data delivers true transparency, encourages greater action, and ultimately, supports visibility.  I am very impressed with Real Estate Balance and their survey which covers so many areas in diversity, including the all-important socio-economic background. We fully support this at BNP Paribas Real Estate and are introducing the same survey to gather more data from our staff.

I’ve been working in real estate for almost 40 years. I hope one day to see a workplace where there is a role for all regardless of who they are, what they are and where they came from.

Real estate is a furiously interesting place and people need to be able to take part to the full. Despite the difficulties I had, I have found the space to meet some great people, travel the world, advise on some of the largest office schemes in London, and I have seen so many buildings that many have not been able to see. I would love it if all can feel the same way as I do today and be able to say the same.

Mark Capanda

• Senior associate director, lease advisory
• A member of and the treasurer for BNP Paribas Pride UK – one of BNP’s employee networks
• First role in real estate: 2012

There were few openly LGBTQ+ people in real estate when I joined. I made the decision to come out about two years after I started my career. I wanted to bring the “whole me” to my job, without limitation. I had a somewhat positive experience coming out the previous year in my personal life, but I was incredibly nervous about how people would react in my professional life.

In hindsight, it was less nerve-wracking coming out at work. My manager was incredibly supportive, and knowing I had his support gave me comfort I had nothing to worry about. What I didn’t fully appreciate at the time is it’s never as simple as coming out once, and that’s that.

You come out again and again over the course of weeks, months and years because people always revert to default questions such as: do you have a girlfriend? I remember an experience I had at a networking dinner when one male attendee did not talk to me for the rest of the event when he found out I was gay.

The hardest part was anticipating how prospective clients might react. I worried that my sexuality could lead to me losing instructions, but I was reassured by my managers that we would not want a client’s instruction if they reacted negatively.

On the whole, my experience has been positive, and I do think the property industry has come a long way. However, I think some people still find it awkward to talk about sexuality, not necessarily because they aren’t accepting of LGBTQ+ people, but because they may worry that we might not want to talk about it, or they may not know what to say.

That’s why Pride Month is so important. It plays an essential role in educating for change. We should strive to be an industry where no one needs to come out. It is important to recognise that LGBTQ+ visibility and representation in real estate has come on leaps and bounds. Freehold, the networking organisation for LGBTQ+ individuals in real estate, has done some great work in this area.

However, we still have a long way to go if we are to completely remove the barriers for individuals who would prefer to be out but remain closeted while at work. We all owe a great deal of gratitude to people like Paul who have paved the way for us to be more of our authentic selves in real estate.